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Discussion Starter #1
I know that there are not too many Rugby fans out here in the States. But its actually coming with more and more High Schools and Colleges offering it as a school sport.

Me being a huge Rugby fan and having played for 5 years now, I am very glad to see that this sport is becoming more popular.....

Here is a fun video I found and I thought I'll just share it....

 

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damn that was intense! those are some crazy hits and slams.
 

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and we say american footballers are the toughest athletes.
um...having played both...with football being played as a Safety/linebacker at a D1 school.
let me tell you why we (american football) hit harder.

we are larger. show me a 290lb guy in rugby who runs a 4.5 and can spear your ass.

helmet hurts a lot more than a pansy lil shoulder will


we are faster. name the lasty olympic sprinter that played rugby.. size x speed = big hurt.

a safety gets a lead on a slot or TE catching a pass down the middle...show me that in safety

all those hits shown (in this thread) would be similar to a rushing play...those never do as much damage as a safety on a reciever.

helmets limit vision. you dont see some of the hits comming.

and finally.....we have a dude named Ray Lewis.

That being said...I absolutely love Rugby and australian rules football even more.

we should have a l4p east vs west with the winner playing the south rugby match....so i can run through some of yous. :D
 

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Rugby is the real mans game, none of that helmet crap ;)
please....if rugby had real men like football does and could hit hard enough...they would be beggin for helmets. :D


and you cant call those skinny lil boys men...make em hit the weight room pronto. I thought it was a womans soccer game fight at first. :D
 

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evertime you drop the ball you start again, joke ;)
come try it. :D

every down also means a new play...good luck remembering that.

with all of american football's cadences, plays, audibiles., gap blocking, reads, (and thats just the offense)...you brits would run home confused and crying.
 

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Jonah Lomu 6'5", 283lbs 10.6 100m:

Could Jonah Lomu Have Made It in the NFL? | Bleacher Report

Both are great sports with great athletes. The debate between explosive power vs endurance at high output levels is one that will never be settled.
you do know that 10.6 is not that fast right?
at 220lbs in highschool. I ran a 10.3 at the texas state finals..that is about average for most DI corners and safetys.
hell...jackie joyner kersie (sp) ran a 10.4...shes a woman!!!

you should see what jevon kearse or julius peppers runs.

general rule of thumb... 4.2-4.3 =10-9.99, 4.4-4.5 =10.1-10.3

sure there are other variables (we humans gain all of our speed within the first 10 yds)

and for all the naysayers...I have two people....barry sanders...would run circles around every rugby player ever born...and bo jackson...would run over and around everbody period.

football have better athletes period. we are stronger, we are faster. hell we even jump higher.

for team sports...pound for pound the best athlete would be a cornerback. they average 40-44 inches vert. bench pretty good. and usually run a 4.3-4.4

and the reason why rugby will never have athletes like american football: money rugby players just are not paid enough compared to american football.
 

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if rugby wasnt created, you would have your football.

Be thankful ;)
I am thankful...football paid for my college..and I play a lot of rugby. just wish we had aussie rules football around here.

but you are correct.

rugby= model t
american football = ford gt.


:D
 

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you do know that 10.6 is not that fast right?
at 220lbs in highschool. I ran a 10.3 at the texas state finals..that is about average for most DI corners and safetys.
You have to compare apples to apples. You were by your own admission 220lbs not 283. I doubt you were 6'5" (Shame on me if you were).

I'm not trying to be critical but you asked for a Rugby player that was 290lbs (not 220) and that ran a 4.5 that could spear you. Jonah Lomu almost fits that to a T. You can argue that he isn't as fast as the "fastest guys" but he is bigger. You can argue that he isn't as big as the "biggest guys", but he is faster.

He is a stud athlete. That plays a pro sport. If he grew up in the USA he'd play football... professionally.

You are clearly a great athlete if you were in the low 10's in highschool but bear in mind the average NFL times for a 100m dash range between very high 9's and low 11's. That makes a guy who is 6'5" and about 283 an anomaly in terms of being both fast (relatively) and huge.

The 40yd dash is more usable for the NFL because of the average duration of a play. A 100m is used in Rugby because it is more appropriate for that sports needs.

You have to admit that the MET.CON level or a Rugby player is much higher than a football player and while the MET.CON level's translation to one's ability to play a sport at a high level is relative, it is an accurate measure of ones athleticism ans as such must be considered.
 

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for team sports...pound for pound the best athlete would be a cornerback. they average 40-44 inches vert. bench pretty good. and usually run a 4.3-4.4
The explosive powered in most pro football players is in very short bursts. Any team sport requiring constant movement and significant endurance demands would find most football players as fish out of water regardless of size, vertical leap or strength. It takes a lot of O2 to push around that much muscle. While high athleticism lends to a good cross section of many sports, it does not lend to all sports equally. In actuality, though you may not want to admit it, a gymnast, wrestler or mixed martial artist probably has a more usable total skill set.
 

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The explosive powered in most pro football players is in very short bursts. Any team sport requiring constant movement and significant endurance demands would find most football players as fish out of water regardless of size, vertical leap or strength. It takes a lot of O2 to push around that much muscle. While high athleticism lends to a good cross section of many sports, it does not lend to all sports equally. In actuality, though you may not want to admit it, a gymnast, wrestler or mixed martial artist probably has a more usable total skill set.
I think you missed the part TEAM sports.
I never mentioned skill set. I mentioned athletic ability. athletic ability does not have to transfer into the real world (outside the sports arena) feats. almost all sport short of endurance sports is done in short bursts.
a soccer player merely jogging and and then increasing his pace is a short burst..same goes for rugby.
yes I do agree with you that wrestling, gymnastics, and mixed martial artist requires athletic ability but a gymnast is judged more on her skill set than her athletic ability.
 

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You have to compare apples to apples. You were by your own admission 220lbs not 283. I doubt you were 6'5" (Shame on me if you were).

I'm not trying to be critical but you asked for a Rugby player that was 290lbs (not 220) and that ran a 4.5 that could spear you. Jonah Lomu almost fits that to a T. You can argue that he isn't as fast as the "fastest guys" but he is bigger. You can argue that he isn't as big as the "biggest guys", but he is faster.

He is a stud athlete. That plays a pro sport. If he grew up in the USA he'd play football... professionally.

You are clearly a great athlete if you were in the low 10's in highschool but bear in mind the average NFL times for a 100m dash range between very high 9's and low 11's. That makes a guy who is 6'5" and about 283 an anomaly in terms of being both fast (relatively) and huge.

The 40yd dash is more usable for the NFL because of the average duration of a play. A 100m is used in Rugby because it is more appropriate for that sports needs.

You have to admit that the MET.CON level or a Rugby player is much higher than a football player and while the MET.CON level's translation to one's ability to play a sport at a high level is relative, it is an accurate measure of ones athleticism ans as such must be considered.

there is an old generic rule of thumb on body composition for males.
a 5 foot 5inch guy can have just as much muscular strength per pound compared to a 6ft5 guy.
if i remember correctly...the formula starts at 5'8 and you take off 8 lbs for every innch under..and you add 10lbs for every inch over 5'8 till you get to 6'9 i think (its been a while since i took kin in college) it pretty much states proportion...a 6.5 guy who is 283 would weigh 210 if he was 5'10 (my height) so that rule of thumb would suggest that a 220lb guy at 5'10 is carrying around more proportional weight than a 283 lbs guy at 6.5

and if that doesnt float your boat...look up jevon kearse, that tight end from san fran, mario willams, or julius peppers...all are the size of jonah and all run faster times. and i would bet some change that they are stronger (especially the tight end from san fran) mario williams is a lot larger than jonah and faster and might be even stronger (i have worked out with him in the past, but then again i dont know how strong jonah is)

MET.COM is measurement of aerobic activity...again...nothing to do with athletism...who, other than some cross country nerds consider met.con endurance testing athletism? :D

ps...most nfl football stars played high level highschool basketball and a bunch also starred in college basketball...including peppers.

a 40 yrd dash and a 100 yrd dash is the same thing. humans reach top speed within the first 10 yrds...then they decelerate...the fastest guy is usually who can keep the top speed up the longest.

I have no doubt jonah would play in the nfl..all i am trying to say is that his athletic ability judging by the one variable given (speed) is not that high compared to nfl playes that are of the same size such as julius peppers (283) kearse (270) both runs 4.4 40s....people of jonahs stats are a dime a dozen...most dont end up in nfl.

another thing that gets me is that jonah was playing against a lot of smaller players (yes i know there are some big guys, but thats rare) than you would see in the nfl...its the wilt chamberlain syndrome...could wilt survive in the nba today...yes..could he be dominant...hell no.
 

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^^

I agree on your argument with respect to body composition ie pound for pound strength but while physics is based on actual numbers hits are graded on damage. You have surely been hit a few times by both faster small guys and slower big guys. Trees that move do more damage. The gentlemen you cited are on the bottom of my list of folks I'd like to get hit by whereas lighter athletes that may move faster and can potentially generate more kinetic energy would not be as bad.

With regard to METCON, I realize it is essentially based on "cardio capacity" but don't you think that overall cardio capacity is a precursor for being good at a team sport?

There was a show a while back that in an indirect way put our debate to the test. Dhani Tackles the Globe. If you saw the show and accept that Mr. Jones is a reasonable "average" NFL athlete, you saw that his athleticism definitely helped him in sports where raw power, overall strength etc. In sports that were more endurance based he faltered. I know he isn't a CB as in your original analogy but the outline still remains.

At the end of the day what type of non biased test do you think would be needed to determine the worlds best athlete? I'm talking overall ability here. Do you go with a decathlon? A crossfit workout? A street fight? Ninja Warrior obstacle course?

Modern sports pick and choose athletes based on how their particular set of attributes, whether physical or technical, stack up against other players. Those with better attributes for a particular sport or position tend to do better than those with less favorable attributes.

So how does one qualify the overall best athlete?

side note - it is refreshing to debate sports science with people with some perspective. Were you a Kin. major in college or did you just take a few classes? I was not. However after school I opened a personal training business and now run a gym and consult for MMA conditioning full time.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Haha, dident know that this is such a discussion.

I think both sports can not be compared to each other when it comes to the players, since on football you have your 2 teams, offense and defense that are somehwhat specialised, whilst in rugby one set of people have to play offense and defense. So both are trained in a completly different way in my opinion. In rugby you need very much cardio, because you keep running back and forth all the time, compared to football where its a play and then stop.

Look at a 7s game of Rugby......No football player could ever do that with the normal football training.

We could keep going all day comparing a fat linebacker against a rugby winger or Running back with a slower rugby forward, but at the end we are still talking about two different sports with 2 different types of athletes.....
 

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^
I agree with you.
 
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