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I don't think J_C meant to come off like that, pretty sure he just copy and pasted that info from the wiki page on ford mod motors as a way of providing an example.

Ill ask the same question though, can you explain engine architecture to me? Or is there any special things between the Coyote/Cammer and the Agera engine that make them so similar?
 

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I don't think J_C meant to come off like that, pretty sure he just copy and pasted that info from the wiki page on ford mod motors as a way of providing an example.

Ill ask the same question though, can you explain engine architecture to me? Or is there any special things between the Coyote/Cammer and the Agera engine that make them so similar?
Since I don't have CAD files (or whatever Ford/Koenigsegg use) of the engines I'll just do this as simply as I can.

Take a look at a basic mod motor stripped down so we can see the basic shape of the block:


Now, here's the CC8S motor, which is an exact copy of the mod motor but built with Koenigsegg's own castings:


Pretty similar except for the CF. Here's the famed Audi 4.2 V8 just to show all DOHC V8's don't look the same:


Now, the Agera R motor:


Notice the resemblance again? Even the bolt placement is exactly the same as the basic mod motor. Now, of course CvK has made improvements to it, but again it is far from "completely bespoke".
 

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I'm sorry if you perceived me as aggressive, maybe I vas a bit takenaway by the talk about male-kettle-poop..

I can see the similarities, but I think some off it might be because of being able to reuse the carbonfiber moulds for covers in the beginning (fitting the modular engine). It could definitely bee interesting to learn more..

And even IF it shows to be a very similar design, I would not say it's the same thing as buying a complete package from someone else. Koenigsegg has done a lot of work on it and managed to build an impressive engine and has several patents in connection to it..
 

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Though somewhat similar, Koenigsegg has put a lot of R&D into the Agera's engine. It's no SBF. There was an interesting read recently on Koenigsegg's concept of valve-less engines.
 

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Though somewhat similar, Koenigsegg has put a lot of R&D into the Agera's engine. It's no SBF. There was an interesting read recently on Koenigsegg's concept of valve-less engines.
Somewhat similar =/= the exact same block/head profile. Most of their R&D hasn't even been put into the engine, the valve-less concept is a long way off.
 

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Somewhat similar =/= the exact same block/head profile. Most of their R&D hasn't even been put into the engine, the valve-less concept is a long way off.
Sources concerning the implemented R&D? Outside of Koenigsegg, no one has a time frame regarding the valve-less technology--no sense in anyone acting as if we have any clue about it, which is why I referenced it as "an interesting article."
 

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Sources concerning the implemented R&D?
Watch this video:

Around 6:40 he explains that the patents for the engine itself are upcoming and that the current ones are mostly on the exhaust.
 

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Discussion Starter #51 (Edited)
Aside from all the bickering, srock is correct about the Koenigsegg engine being a mod motor from another mother. The guts of that engine are the same, I highly doubt Koenigsegg spent $$$ on redesigning cylinder heads and the block architecture is the same regardless of what heads you put on it. From what I see, most of Koenigsegg's R&D on that engine would involve the exhaust, intake and fuel systems.

No matter how much you modify the mod motor, the architecture of the engine isn't going to change. It will always be a mod motor. And there is nothing wrong with that either. The mod motor, when built properly like in the FGT, is bullet proof.
 

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To be honest I was hoping for a little more substantial "evidence" than a side by side comparison of visuals when using strong language like "complete bullsh*t". But nevermind, might as well chime in with my two ignorant cents as well then.

I recall an old interview where Christian talks about the decision to start casting their own engines. The way I remember it, and I'm paraphrasing, they got to the point where the old CC8S/CCR engine blocks began splitting in their test bed and more time was spent fixing problems in the basic design than it would take to rework the engine so they did a complete overhaul of the design from the ground up as a matter of pragmatism. The dimensions and functionality of the engine is all Koenigsegg but some similarities were consciously kept intact for 'practical reasons' (which is more often than not the case with engine designs, very rarely they do they start from scratch. I'm guessing in Koenigsegg case it's a combination of them still being able to get support with high development cost/low performance impact parts from their established custom dealerships in the Ford racing infrastructure and to simply to keep development cost down overall). While some parts are similar they are not identical so couldn't be fit in a stock Ford mod engine bar one or two minor things, can't remember which, I have vague memory of Christian mentioning in passing in another interview as an example of how much they'd redesigned it. I'm inclined to believe these claims since they reduced the weight of the engine from the already very light CCR by approx 10% while increasing the power on 98 RON with approx 25%. It also has a different stroke, bore and compression ratio than what you can find in any other Ford mod block so at the very least the cylinders, cylinder heads, pistons, conrods, crankshaft, valves and timing are unique to Koenigsegg. Obviously the pulley placement have changed, there's a different manifold and exhaust and Koenigsegg's own ECU. For context these things alone would be more than enough for big companies to brand it a new engine model. And those things are merely some of the ones we can verify by visuals and readily available information.

So yeah, "based on" and "bespoke" are both fair because there is obviously some reverse engineering in the tailored aka bespoke redesign. "Copied", "stolen", "powered by" or "complete bullsh*t" would however be incorrect. It's similar but reengineered from the ground up so effectively a Koenigsegg engine with it's roots in the Ford mod rather than a tuned engine with a few shiny company logos on the casting which is what seems to be proposed by some in this thread. The work they do is admirable enough since it's the same type of work 40 people at AMG did for Pagani with the Huayra. To expect a company the size of Koenigsegg to throw everything away and start with a clean sheet of paper however when even big companies hesitate to do this (the Ford mod family has hung around since 1991) I believe most would agree is unrealistic. And most people can also use their eyes for a simple side-by-side comparison (or read wikipedia or any of the thousands of publications, forum posts and youtube comments mentioning it) and conclude that the design is based on a Ford mod, so insinuating that Christian is "bullsh*tting" would be unreasonable as well since it's already out in the open and there for all to see. I know at least two of their customers are also Ford GT owners so the dramatic reveal is really not that impressive or shocking and I'm certain it's a conversation Christian has had many times in the past and will continue to have in the future...

And as a side note even the old Ford engine in the CCR had proprietary bespoke sollutions you couldn't find in any other car. The CCR was released in 2004.

MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - In theory it could work... Rotrex idea

The guts of that engine are the same
Forgive me for asking but is this guesswork or do you know something we don't? I thought you ended this thread on a high note when you wrote:

"Read the thread again dude. I'm not saying that the Agera R is powered by a Ford engine. I said the early models were and that the engines they use now are based off of the mod motor design. The principle design of the new 5.0 Liter Koenigsegg engine is that of the mod motor. That's not saying that it's powered by Ford, as the only thing that the new 5.0 Liter has in common with, say the 5.0 Liter Coyote, is that of its basic design. You can take an engine and completely re-engineer it to perform better, in which case that engine is now your creation. I just found it interesting that Koenigsegg started with the mod motor and later took it to new heights with his own designs. You don't usually associate Koenigsegg with Ford."
 

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I can't even. I'm done with this thread and discussion. A surprisingly large amount of people on this forum cannot read or use logical thought processes.
 

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Definitely a previous discussion, but still cool to know. Mod motors have always had a ton of potential, but to date the displacement was always smaller simply due to the space required.

If you look at the Ford GT, those guys can make well north of 1,000 hp with a stock transaxle and stock internals in the engine. I'm not a fan of turbos, but the TTGT's know how to slam it hard.
Not sure what you're definition of "well north" is, but it's very well known in the FGT community that 1000whp is pretty much the limit of the stock rods/pistons as well as supporting systems in the engine (fuel).
 

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Discussion Starter #55 (Edited)
Forgive me for asking but is this guesswork or do you know something we don't? I thought you ended this thread on a high note when you wrote:

"Read the thread again dude. I'm not saying that the Agera R is powered by a Ford engine. I said the early models were and that the engines they use now are based off of the mod motor design. The principle design of the new 5.0 Liter Koenigsegg engine is that of the mod motor. That's not saying that it's powered by Ford, as the only thing that the new 5.0 Liter has in common with, say the 5.0 Liter Coyote, is that of its basic design. You can take an engine and completely re-engineer it to perform better, in which case that engine is now your creation. I just found it interesting that Koenigsegg started with the mod motor and later took it to new heights with his own designs. You don't usually associate Koenigsegg with Ford."
If you read my last reply, it still is in line with my earlier one. When I said guts, I'm referring to the architecture of the engine.

Trust, the stock engine with a TT kit and a little tweaking of the fuel have hit 1100 HP. By well north, I was meaning that they didn't just hit 1000 hp. I agree that beyond 1100 hp is where you need to rebuild the engine.
 

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They say its a 5.0L, I hear someone say for, but the specs say 305ci, not 302ci. Chevy is 305, ford is 302. Both are considered 5.0L
 

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In Koenigsegg's first few models including the CC8S that went 241 MPH making it the fastest production car at the time, it used a Ford 4.6L DOHC 32 valve engine right from Ford, then they started building their own engines based on that design. In this Top Gear Video Jeremy Clarkson says exactly that, when comparing it to the Pagani Zonda C12S. And here is another picture of the Ford engine even with a cast aluminum Ford Mustang Cobra intake on it. Look at both engines, they are exactly the same. I don't understand why so many people, mostly European's deny this fact and say all American engines are shit, then when you say if that's true, why would Koenigsegg use Ford's 4.6L Modular engines in their Supercars until they had the funds and ability to start building their own engines, and they will deny it till the Cows come home, no matter what evidence you provide. Here are some links and pictures of both engines.
Below are links to pics of the 655hp Koenigsegg Ford DOHC 4.6L engine used in the 99-01 N/A Cobra, and supercharged in '03 and '04, and pictures of stock or slightly modified Ford 4.6L DOHC 32 valve engines, that look exactly the same as the Koenigsegg engine, take note of the bolt locations, pulleys, alternator location, valve covers, and their bolts, intake similarities, block size and shape, throttle body position, dry sump pump on the modified engine picture similarity (stock, they are wet sump, except for the Ford GT), header spacing on the 4.6 that has aftermarket headers, ect. Thousands of Mustang enthusiasts modified their Cobras with headers, higher lift cams, high flow intakes, performance engine tunes, head porting, stroker kits up to 5.1L in the 4.6L, larger throttle bodies, high flow cold air intakes and mass air meters, bolt on turbo kits, nitrous, centrifugal superchargers like the Vortech used on the Koenigsegg, Vortech has been making centrifugal supercharger kits for fuel injected Mustangs since the late '80's, Paxton, ATI, and a few other companies made centrifugal superchargers for Ford engines, and larger roots, or twin screw superchargers with more boost (in the '03/'04 Cobras) to make over 600 hp with the naturally aspirated 4.6L engines and up to 1000 hp with the superchaged '03/'04 4.6L engines.
Koenigsegg CC--Engine with Intercooler Koenigsegg Ford 4.6 Liter engine with Carbon Fiber valve covers
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-jkl/Koenigsegg-CC-Engine.jpg Koenigsegg CC8S engine carbon fiber front cam chain cover, valve covers & intake
http://www.automobilesreview.com/gallery/koenigsegg-ccx-studio-e/koenigsegg-ccx-studio-e-09.jpg Koenigsegg CCX engine
http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/32070234/mdmp_1003_16_+ford_v8_engines+supercharged_dohc_v8.jpg Ford 4.6 with dry sump oiling
http://image.musclemustangfastfords.com/f/tech/mmfp_1204_four_valve_modular_engine_upgrades/40127523/mmfp-1204-01+ford-mustang-cobra-crankup+engine.jpg 483 hp modified 4.6 L with similar intake
http://solutionsforhouston.com/public/Pictures/Cobra/5.4 Engine Install/5.4completefront.jpg Vortech supercharged 4.6L Cobra engine
http://www.distantvisions.net/Images/Cars/Cobra99/cobra99ecut.jpg Ford Racing 4.6 Liter Cobra engine
http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M-6007-M146.jpg Ford Racing 4.6 Liter engine from a Mach 1
http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/350-450-Crate-Engine.jpg Modified 450 hp Sean Hyland 4.6L
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/1999-2000-2001-2002-2003-2004-ford-mustang-8.jpg '99-'02 Cobra engine
Top Gear Pagani Zonda C12S VS Koenigsegg CC8S - YouTube Top Gear episode of the CC8S with Jeremy Clarkson saying they used the Ford Racing 4.6 Liter engine
http://cdn.speednik.com/image/2013/08/cobra-tt-2.jpg Twin turbo 1500 hp 4.6L Mustang Street car
http://ocspeedparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=35_66_283&products_id=2664 725 hp Vortech Supercharged 4.6L engine
https://www.lucasoil.com/images/medialibrary/IMG_0220_500.jpg 2500 hp 4.6L Accufab Lucas Oil Mihovetz PSCA Pro Street Twin Turbo Charged Cobra Mustang https://www.lucasoil.com/gallery/display.sd?iid=4321

A lot of people just can't believe an American car company could build such a good engine that is capable of handling a huge amount of power when modified. A stock 4.6L DOHC engine from the '03/'04 Cobra's can handle over 1000 hp stock, and the Ford GT 5.4L DOHC, and Mustang GT500 5.4L and 5.8L engines can handle over 1500hp stock and over 2500 hp with the stock block, crank, and heads with the use of twin turbos. That's why all of the top Texas standing mile cars are Ford GT's that have gone up to 276 mph, and a car in FL from PPR supposedly went 283 mph and has the Guinness world record for the Standing Mile. These cars are making up to 2700 hp with a stock Ford GT chassis and body per the production car rules, also using a stock block, crank, and heads, and giant twin turbos. The Ford Modular engines with 6 head bolts per cylinder are very strong engines. 90 hp/Liter is pretty good for the stock 444 hp 5 liter Boss 302 engine, and 114 hp/Liter is very good for the 5.8L GT500 engine that matches the most powerful Ferrari engine ever put in a production car, the 730hp V12 in the F12. And Ford makes a lot more hp per liter than Chevy or Dodge naturally aspirated or supercharged. The 662 hp 5.8L 2013 GT500 engine is the most powerful production V8 in the world and gained 1 mile per gallon over the previous years 5.4L GT500 engine that only made 550hp. Ford's Modular motors are very efficient, strong, reliable, get great gas mileage, and the cars they come in cost a fraction of what European engines cost, and for only $54k you can get a modern sports car that has the same performance as 99% of Supercars made today. 0-60 in 3.5 sec, 11.6 in the 1/4 mile, 202 mph top speed, 108 ft braking from 60, 1.01g on the skidpad, at 3800 lbs, and does 1:38 around Laguna Seca Raceway, the same exact time as the Ferrari F12, Porche 911 GT3, and the new Corvette C7 Stingray, and a lot of other much more expensive cars. There is a list of videos that Motor Trend has made with Randy Pobst testing cars for years on a hot lap around Mazda Laguna Seca Raceway. The current record is the new Dodge SRT TA. Not to mention next year the Mustang it will weigh 250-350 lbs less depending on model, the same as the new C7 Corvette, 3450lbs, compared to the Camaro ZL1 that weighs 4050 lbs, and the Challenger SRT8 that weighs 4350 lbs. The ZL1 was built for the sole purpose of beating the GT500 yet comes up way short, 0-60 3.8, 12.1 1/4 mile, and only has a 180 mph top speed, and is 2 seconds slower around Laguna Seca Raceway. It's a lot closer in performance to the Boss 302 than the GT500 that has a naturally aspirated 444 hp 5 liter engine. I'm glad Ford cut a lot of weight out of the new Mustang, with it's all new front suspension and rear IRS suspension and bigger wheels and tires because of the new wider design, with the better handling and braking, it will be performance wise on par with the Corvette C7 instead of competing with the over 4000 lb Camaro ZL1. It's gonna be hard for GM to shave off 500 lbs from the Camaro to be able to compete with the new 2015 Mustang. I haven't a clue why they think they will sell a lot of 4300 lb Pony cars, that just doesn't make sense. They just used the only chassis they had available. The Ford Mustang is hands down the best bang for your buck Performance car made. And being the most modified car ever made, the amount of aftermarket companies making performance parts for less than new stock parts is amazing. At 3450 lbs the new 2015 Mustang will be even better than the 2014 GT500 it's replacing, which could put the next Mustang Cobra, or GT500 at hypercar performance levels.
 

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well theres a lot of cars out there now that have chevy and ford engines and bmw transmission and only a very few mechanics know xD
 

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Liar Liar, for a brand?

We all know they never bought an engine block from ford for those years
Ford couldn't even make their own engine in 1999 from aluminum when it only needed to handle 300hp
2004 Cobra was supposed to be aluminum block, wanna guess whether Ford engineers could get aluminum to handle 390hp in 2004?

Ford literally can't even make the engine internals for Boss or GT500.
Boss & Gt500 has Drop Forged & Ball(shot) Peen Forged rods from Manley, but these type of rods are stock in a V6 chevy's
 
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