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Discussion Starter #61 (Edited)
So it was here... I wonder why I didn't sign up way back then? Usually if I come across some content like that I will register for the forum and at least say "thanks".

Well, here's a belated "Thanks" to you, MTK and FrankyFerrari for a glimpse at that encounter with what is an absolutely beautiful McLaren, and quite special given the history as well.

Someone inquired in that old thread about the status of the other prototypes and rather than pull it out of the archives, I'll just put it here.

I sort of covered it in the "Dream Garage" thread already, and a little bit here too, but basically XP1 and XP2 are both gone. XP1 crashed very early on in the development process, before XP2 was even completed yet. Then one of XP2's chores was to serve as the car used for barrier crash testing at MIRA in the UK, and even though it survived the impact test very well and could have been driven away, it was quite the development hack and was eventually scrapped.

XP3 was given to Gordon Murray as a gift after being cleaned up and brought up to almost full-production spec. He is still the owner today.

I told the basic story of XP4 in my very first L4P post so if you wish to read it, it's there.

XP5 remained with the factory for a very long time after production was over, still being used as a marketing and demonstration car which was always its primary role since it was the closest to full production spec. It spent a short period of time on display in the McLaren showroom in London on Park Lane just prior to that closing in early 2004. Then it was on almost permanent display at the new McLaren Technology Centre in Woking, UK. I expected they would keep it forever given that it was the F1 that set the 240.1 mph top speed record in 1998, but now I suspect they may have finally sold it on to a real customer as of ~Sept 2009. Some photos and a pair of videos surfaced of it all taped up with blue painter's tape (what McLaren frequently does when they prep a car that will be test driven) at the Bruntingthorpe track where McLaren usually take new owners for their first shake down runs in the car. These are those pics I reference - click for larger:



Probably it has remained in the UK given the plate is taped over at the front. Throughout its life it always wore the reg plate "K8 MCL" and there would have been no reason to hide that unless it had been changed. The plate on the rear is just a temp tag/dealer plate that belongs to McLaren which they can move between cars they are servicing.

>8^)
ER
 

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Discussion Starter #62 (Edited)
Yeap us! :D

Can I vote this thread of the year already! :bow: :p
Sure you can, but there probably aren't too many competitors to the crown at this point. ;) Give it time and we will see. I will do my best to keep up with it, but tomorrow my 'winter hiatus' will be over and I do go back to work which will cause my focus and free time to suffer a bit. I won't soon forget my new obligation to L4P, but rapid-fire replies will suffer.

About time you start this thread Pelton! Very glad you are here to share your knowledge. Now if I can only get Carbon "Enzo" McCoy to join on here with his knowledge on Enzos...:p
I don't envy Carbon one bit with the chore he so capably manages tracking all those Enzos. For starters, we've got ~25% less cars to look after, and while we do have that "Silver" problem, there are a lot more unique looking F1s around than there appear to be unique looking Enzos. The two of us have actually collaborated by sharing info in the past though, which has been good. :)

>8^)
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I don't remember the plate, the second time I saw it, it was just a bit to dark and I was to focus on his tail lights (they are pretty bright, haha). It was pretty amazing. I would rate it as one of my best automotive experiences ever. The way it just gripped and took off without hesitation. And then making me realize the light was green.

J.
 

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Discussion Starter #64 (Edited)
That's fine - I can totally understand the 'shock and awe' from seeing a car like that and your total inability to focus in on something like a license plate you would not have known might matter. Surprised you were able to keep your own car on the road. ;)

= = = = =

Brings up a good point though. Here's a question I like to ask people about the F1 that sort of prepares them for when they might see one unexpectedly:

Do you know where to find the chassis plate if you did happen to see an F1?

So many people tend to overlook it, and it's RIGHT THERE! Here's my favorite trio of shots to lead your eye to the right place. Click to enlarge.

--> -->

If the car isn't open you can still read the number on the chassis plate through the side window or from above through the windshield too.

In the early years, when I didn't immediately recognize the F1 in almost every photo I see, I'd ask people who shared new images if they knew what the chassis number was and most did not have a clue there was one, or know where to look - even people who got sat in the driver's seat would miss it - so I think that string of images really helps educate people.

The autograph seen on the chassis spar in those shots is Gordon Murray's btw, and there are a few cars out there like that. One car had his signature on the corner of the rear wing, and another yellow one in Japan was rather strangely autographed by Gordon on the corner of the rear bumper, I would guess at the owner's request? Like signing the bottom corner of a painting almost.

>8^)
ER
 

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I am in awe of your endless drive for knowledge behind the masterpiece thats in the hearts of us all enthusiasts :)

J.
 

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Discussion Starter #66 (Edited)
Well, do us all a favor and keep a little camera in the car for any future encounters you might have please. :)

= = = = =

I did want to mention that I have pretty much put the finishing touches on the request that was made on Page 1 to cover the basics that TheYeti asked for in his earlier post.

If you get the chance could you write a breakdown of model types, overall production numbers for each type and what years each type was in production? Including variations in build design and each new types intended purpose if you wouldnt mind. Thank you in advance.
It ended up being a lot of text, so the answer spans two posts becuase of the 10,000 character limitation. You can read them here if you haven't already:

Post #1 covering the 'numbers', then the F1 road car, '95 F1 GTRs, F1 LMs, and '96 F1 GTRs.

Post #2 covering the '97 F1 GTRs, F1 GTs and then the newer variants that have come along in post-production times.

If there are details there that could/should be expanded on I am happy to oblige.

>8^)
ER
 

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I can confirm and clarify that the car currently at SPS is number 64. My friend is with it as i type!!



Revisting this question again and continuing the #063/#064 dialogue, here is a link to their current ad for the car on Anamera.com:

1997 McLaren F1 for sale: Anamera

Note these photos are similar, but different to the ones that are seen on the SPS website of #064. Does this confirm that #063 is the one they still have? Not necessarily, as these are the same photos of #063 in their showroom that were first shared back in May 2007 as I earlier mentioned.

Should it mean the car they have to sell is #063 - well, I would hope so, but maybe they are just supplying them in 'File Photo' fashion? Happens sometimes, for sure. Also, the watch they show in the TagHeuer box in the final image looks very nice, but looks nothing like the watch that was included along with the purchase of each McLaren F1.

Most original owners chose to hold onto their watches, so its been said that they rarely are passed along to a new owner. The same is also true of a lot of the bits that were included in the purchase of an F50 - like the driving shoes - those hardly ever stayed with the car.

= = = = =

Also, in my earlier response I said that prior to going to HK:

"Then #063 showed up in another random car showroom in Japan I don't recall the name of in Jan 2007."

I pulled up those photos again, and looking at them more closely it doesn't appear to be a car showroom really. Name on the door says "HASUMI CORPORATION" and to the left of the car it appears they're displaying ...hot tubs? :confused:







There do appear to be car images on the walls of the showroom. I had never heard of the place myself, but a quick Google search I just did gives Sundance Spas website in return. So, hot tubs they are then. :)

Perhaps the car briefly belonged to the owner? Maybe it was loaned to them for a brief display? All plausible guesses graciously accepted.

Minor detail: Those three images are 3 years old as of yesterday, which was when I was talking about them. Strange...

>8^)
ER
 

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Discussion Starter #68
I can confirm and clarify that the car currently at SPS is number 64. My friend is with it as i type!!
Thanks so much for that confirmation! :thumbup:

I'd say they may wish to correct the photos in their current Anamera.com ad then, as although the cars are nearly identical I am certain without any doubts that set shows chassis #063.

That almost certainly makes the silver F1 that arrived in the ZAZ Museum prior to July 2008 chassis #063, via an educated guess and now some additional process of elimination. Fun games we play, really.

>8^)
ER
 

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Eric, thanks for sharing of your knowledge of the F1's!

- out of curiosity, what would you tip a road converted '96 GTR to sell for at the moment ? - eg. with and without Le Mans history ?

- Dennis
 

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Discussion Starter #70 (Edited)
Good question. :)

It's difficult for me to answer though with any certainty, as there is very little data in the public domain with which to draw from. GTR transactions happen a lot less often than the frequent exchange of road cars between owners. There are also about half as many GTRs that exist. Publicizing the final figures for these types of sales is also rarely done, unless a car were to change hands via public auction, which has not happened with any of the 28 F1 GTRs in a very long time.

I suspect that the two cars you might be referring to with your rather specific question would be GTR #13R currently offered by Kidston SA which does not have LeMans credits and the other one would be GTR #16R which was originally for sale through DK Engineering, then sold to Elms Collection (both in the UK), and did in fact race at LeMans once.

If you are not the individual who purchased #16R recently, I am sorry to inform it has already found a new home, and should no longer be available according to my sources. I do not know at what price the car finally changed hands for, but I do know that when with DK Eng the asking price was at one point reduced by £400,000 to £1.6 million. You can read about that here.

GTR #13R, is listed here - "Price on request" - which again is not uncommon in this area of high end car sales. As I alluded to in an earlier post, I am not one to attempt to request that price myself as I am not a serious buyer at this point. I'd love to have the info - sure - and often manage to obtain it through folks who are connected to a car, or who happen to be serious buyers, but personally I don't wish to waste a seller's time unnecessarily.

In this particular case, I may have been told what the ask was through one of my sources, but don't recall offhand and will have to look through my things a little later to perhaps confirm. Of course as the example above shows - the asking price sometimes doesn't mean a whole lot, but you'd expect that the seller knows his business and will have access to more real historical pricing info then I might. The car's previous owner has had no less than 4 F1s in his collection at different times over the years, so he too is familiar with the market, I am sure.

These two cars have both been converted for road use as you might be aware. I think that is something that would affect their value more compared to other GTRs that haven't been than the LeMans connection, but that is dependent on the buyer to decide. I suspect your concern, or the logic that leads you to believe their would be a difference between 'LeMans history'/'No LeMans history' is more about very long term future value and the possibility of using the car in the LeMans Classic event. If the idea of those things adds real value to the car for a buyer, then I assume it is up to them to determine how much value it adds to the car.

Also, just participating at LeMans doesn't put all the cars on an even playing field when it comes to price either for an obvious reason. Certainly a car like #05R that was 13th overall in 1995 should command a lower price than #06R which took 3rd at the same event, then came back the following year to finish 6th if price were based solely on their LeMans results. Also #06R has a much more successful racing history when you combine results of all the events the two participated in during their equally long careers on the track. Present day, #06R has been road-converted, whereas #05R remains a true racer. Again - not exactly apples to apples when determining the price.

I think for most GTRs, save the original 1995 winner, the "LeMans" connection is less of a concern for a potential purchaser than how they can use the car today. Except for the Goodwood FOS, and an attempt that was made at a GT90's Revival series which ran a few events but hasn't exactly taken off yet, there's not much in the way of historic racing for these cars yet. In time that will change - and should have an effect on who owns them I would imagine, and also what prices they command in a positive direction in my opinion.

GTR #13R's conversion for road use was something that the car's current owner incurred the rather large expense for after purchasing it. I know the owner has made good use of that too, but also took the car to private track days as well. GTR #16R's previous owner was excited about the LeMans connection on his car for sure, but also used it frequently on the road and bought the car already converted for that purpose, and also fresh off a refit by the factory. Perhaps for those two owners, the idea of buying an F1 GTR without the road conversion being an option would have been less appealing - so that is another thing you have to consider when talking about GTR prices.

Hope some of this dialogue helps - I wish I had hard numbers to present for you or was better informed on real figures from past transactions to make an accurate valuation estimate. One thing seems to hold true though - traditionally GTRs pricing has run under the current price of F1 road cars. This is counter-intuitive to what most people might expect, but again I think it centers around what the people purchasing these cars intend to do with them and what is available right now.

Thanks again for the question!

>8^)
ER
 

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Peloton - much thanks for all of the F1 knowledge you've dispensed. You've contributed greatly to the site IMO and I've learned quite a bit about what is arguably one of the holy grails of exotic cars. Keep up the good work.
 

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Thank you so much for sharing all this infomation with L4P. For a gearhead like myself I could read on about this car for days.
 

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Discussion Starter #74 (Edited)
Frankly, I enjoy this sort of discussion just as much as the rest of you seem to and am always happy to try and educate interested parties on the fantastic history of the McLaren F1. :)

= = = = =

Expanding just a tad bit more on my previous post:

I looked up the price details I had received for #13R at Kidston and I was told that at least when it was first listed in August 2009 with them the asking price was roughly $2.0M USD (+/- 10%). Convert that figure to GBP at today's exchange rate and you get £1,240,206.77 - which seems pretty favorable against the earlier asking price of GTR #16R at the reduced price of £1.6M if you were in the market for such a car.

One humorous point I feel I must include are the comments I made in August after hearing of #13R's lower asking price in comparison to #16R's. Note the last sentence. :D

I guess there is some logic in that - since #16R has received a complete refit, including the removal of the rollbar, making it more user friendly on the road, along with new coverings for the seating surfaces. It has fresh paint too - supposedly in immaculate condition and in an obviously popular color. Also, this LARK car has no LeMans history which perhaps hinders its value in comparison.
Again I will mention - in Kidston's description of the car which I linked to above, that the conversion for road use on #13R "cost approximately £200,000" for the previous owner to have completed. I do not know for sure what price he originally paid for #13R to the Australian dealer who had secured it for sale from its earlier owner in Japan, but initially it was hard to imagine that there could be a whole lot of profit in the asking price this time around.

Then, just now, I actually had a bright idea, and dug deep into the archives of knowlege and discovered that the asking price out of Australia back in September 2005 for GTR #13R may have been 'just' $1.2M USD - wow! So, try to follow me here - if you tack on a historically adjusted cost of the conversion using the £200,000 quoted for the work - which equals out to $368,590 based on the average £ to $ exchange rate for 2006 when that occurred - it puts you at $1,568,590 USD all-in for the 2005/2006 purchase price and conversion costs together.

Now keep in mind, there is some speculation involved here and that is not likely the exact price, nor does it account for many other costs, but it definitely leaves perhaps a little bit of profit in the deal at today's assumed $2.0M asking price for it. Interesting, I think...

>8^)
ER
 

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Hi Erik, nice to see you over here too :hello:

You have obviously got far too much time on your hands at the moment :big_grin:

#16R was sold through ELMS to a buyer, not sold to ELMS. :wink:

Most of the rest you have written is spot on ;):rockin:
 

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Your knowledge amazes me, the McLaren isn't my favorite car but its definitely one of my favorites. Thank you very much for posting everything you have posted, this is the most i've read in a loooooong time haha. I'm kind of bummed after reading all of this though as I live in the mid-south in Tennessee and will most likely never see a car of this caliber roaming the streets. Do you know of any McLarens around the Southern US, but furthur north than Florida?

I'm a big fan of the XJ220, have any knowledge on that wonderful piece of work???
 

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Discussion Starter #79 (Edited)
Do you know of any McLarens around the Southern US, but furthur north than Florida?
Well as we learned in here about #073 - some of the cars do tend to change hands or move around, and I don't always immediately learn those things. That being said...

This F1 is the very beautiful chassis #036, and spends time in the Baton Rouge area of Louisana mostly, though these two pics were snapped of it in Houston April 08.





I'll go ahead and include what I know of it so we can get one more chassis out of the way.

This F1 was originally owned from new by Mansour Ojjeh, the other principal of the McLaren Group, alongside Ron Dennis. His father, Akram, is a wealthy Saudi entrepreneur and owner of the TAG Group. Akram purchased the prestigious Swiss watch manufacturer 'Heuer' in 1984 and changed the name to "TAG-Heuer". TAG is an acronym of Techniques d'Avant Garde.

If you were not already familiar with the connection of TAG-Heuer watches and McLaren, this explains why each new McLaren F1 road car included a very special watch from them with the chassis number of the car on the face of it. TAG Group sold TAG-Heuer to the Louis Vuitton Holdings company in 1999, so the connection is no longer the same anymore and I don't believe owners of the upcoming MP4-12C will get the same treatment, but maybe I am wrong.

Mansour Ojjeh was one of the four principles connected to McLaren that conceived and initiated the "McLaren F1" project during a conversation while waiting to board a plane in Milan airport following the 1988 Italian Grand Prix. The other three were both Ron Dennis and Gordon Murray, of course, and Creighton Brown their head of Marketing. The latter's comment quoted in "Driving Ambition" in regards to their original chat that day was this, btw: "The simple truth of it is that all four of us there that day were essentially car nuts.". Mansour was quoted as asking his companions "Why do I have to go to Italy to buy a supercar?" And thus, the rest is history.

How you see #036 above there is how it was configured when originally produced. The paint color is Pale Blue Metallic, and it has a mixture of darker blue alcantara, leather and carpeting that makes up the interior. From the sounds of just the written description, I could never imagine liking the car. After seeing photos of it though - I really think it makes for a stunning combination and I very much like it!

Here's images from when Ojjeh still had the car taken by a friend inside the Schäfer Automobile dealer in Idstein, Germany that functions as that regions Authorized Service Center for McLaren.





I also know who the current owner is, but unlike many, he's not famous for anything and his name isn't floated publicly. He contacted me directly back in May of 2006 when he first purchased it just to say hello to a fellow F1 enthusiast which was certainly kind of him to do. His car was in New York at the time undergoing emissions testing for the EPA certification and he hoped to have it home by June. He shared some details on the car that verified what I knew about it and some others I did not. Then he mentioned he would try to have the car in Monterey that summer and hoped we could meet up so I would get a chance to see it, again very kind.

As luck would have it, he didn't make it to Monterey that summer with the car, but a few other F1s did. I missed going to Monterey in 2007 and then contacted him again before planning my trip for 2008 to see if by chance he'd be bringing it that year. It turned out he was planning to attend with the car and was still eager to share. Again though, the stars didn't align as I had to make a last minute cancellation on my plan to go up there. Hopefully I'll get another opportunity to see it at some point in the future.

Here's some good images of it that were captured by the kids from Car-Parazzi.com while it was there in Monterey:



I really like the first one next to the F430 as it offers a great size comparison, showing just how small an F1 really is. Most people, the first time they encounter one, are shocked to realize it's exterior dimensions are almost exactly that of a Porsche Boxster. When you think about the fact that it seats 3 adults comfortably, has a 6.1L V12, and has real luggage space available it is hard to argue against the genius of Gordon Murray's design.

At the time the US owner purchased the car it had been driven just 1,900 miles from new. He was able to obtain all the extras with the car including the rolling tool chest, fitted luggage and the TAG-Heuer watch with the chassis number on the face. Often those items have not been preserved with the car or are not passed on from owner to owner.

As you can see from the pics, he still runs the original Swiss registration number the car wore when it resided in Geneva, though on a UK-sized plate. One thing I am thankful for is that the new owner loved the interior and exterior combination just as much as I do and chose to leave it all untouched when he bought it. That means unlike so many other F1s, this car has remained original from the time it was built, and I don't believe it's seen any damage throughout it's life. Quite a gem really.

Some of you may be saying "I have seen this car before" and that's probably true. Some excellent images of it have been taken by two photographers - Webb Bland (aka: notbland) and Richard Thompson (aka: syfon). I won't rehost their work here, but can give links if you are interested.

I'm a big fan of the XJ220, have any knowledge on that wonderful piece of work???
It's an interesting one that came along when I was captivated by all the supercar offerings, so I am familiar for sure, but it wasn't ever an incredibly huge favorite of mine like the F1. I do think they are beautiful to look at, but functionally they are too big, therefore too heavy for my tastes. With an extensively aluminum body and chassis, and an engine nearly half the size in displacement of the one fitted to the McLaren, the XJ220 still tips the scales at almost 500lbs heavier which is not acceptable in my view. I am always partial to normally aspirated powerplants too - such as F50 > F40 in my world - so another strike on the XJ220 there, especially since the original concept as presented was supposed to have an NA V12. I am glad they scrapped the proposed AWD system, but the big cat needed a big V12 and the car suffered in the marketplace losing many deposits due to that change. Another disappointment was the car's top speed - typically an irrelevant figure since there are too few opportunities to experience - the XJ220 made theirs immediately relevant by including the projected top speed figure in the car's name. When official testing was done, even with side view mirrors removed, the car reached a maximum of 217 I believe. 'Promise big - deliver bigger' not achieved here.

It also didn't help that I saw those episodes of "Fast Masters" live on television, which are briefly explained below:

To promote the car, Jaguar and the ESPN sports network cooked up Fast Masters, in which retired race drivers ran XJ220s at tiny Indianapolis Raceway Park. The long-legged exotics were out of their element. AutoWeek’s Denise McCluggage likened it to “racing thoroughbreds around the dining room table.” Much lovely aluminum was rearranged.
You can see one of the car's that participated for sale over here. The show which was strangely put together in 1993 when there was no legal means to even attempt to import one to the USA, was not the car's finest hour. :(

Don't want it to seem like I am piling on here, but if I had simply stated something like "Nope, don't like them" you would have either wondered or had to ask why. Figured I'd just share all the reasons up front.

All that being said, I do like the XJ220S model that TWR built a little more and have seen two of them in person in the USA. I have some photos I could pass along to you if you'd like, and maybe there's a link to an old thread on Supercars.net that you'd enjoy viewing that I can dig up that covers almost everything known about the 220S's.

>8^)
ER
 

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Discussion Starter #80 (Edited)
Very good review by Tiff Needel of the F1, love watching his reviews. Looks like he is driving XP4 as well.

YouTube - Top Gear - McLaren F1
Yes - that was, is, and always will be one of the favorites of mine. Tiff's raw enthusiasm behind the wheel certainly helped to fuel my own for the F1 when I first saw it in the mid-90's.

Another video that is simply great introduction to the F1 is this four part series from a UK TV show filmed in 1999 called "The Car's the Star - featuring Quentin Willson". It's a lot like that old TopGear clip, but was filmed once production was completed so there is more to talk about. The video with Tiff would have been shot back in 1994 when the F1 was still fairly new and none of the variants existed.

This show is a little over 18 minutes in length and if you have not seen it yet, I assure you will enjoy it and probably learn some things as well.

*** You might want to turn your speakers down before starting clip #1 as the audio was captured at a high level on these and the show starts out with some music that will launch you out of your seat. ;)

Click play, and then click on the video window once more to open them in a new window from YouTube. Then you can expand them to watch full-screen. :cool:





If you leave a comment on any of them at YouTube.com, I have those set to be approved before they appear to keep the really ridiculous or profane ones from cluttering up those discussions. You can, of course, leave a comment here in this thread too. :)

>8^)
ER
 
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