I was doing some research on the engines that power some of the world's finest vehicles and I found out some information about Koenigsegg I didn't know. Anyone who actually knows about Ford's modular V8 knows why Ford hasn't quit using the engine family and only does improvements on it. It's an incredible design that hasn't reached its limits, even in the hypercar world apparently. How many on here know that Koenigsegg started out using Ford mod motors? The CC8S and following CCR used the 4.7 Liter V8. The CCX engine was the first time that Koenigsegg went into making the mod motor its own but kept the overall engine design. This has continued with the Agera. Below is a video I found of Mr. Koenigsegg explaining the new 5.0 liter engine and after that is a picture of a Ford GT 5.4 Liter V8 and then the new 5.0 Liter Coyote engine. Notice the similarities. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that the mod motor design is found in Koenigsegg's. I've always been a Ford guy and now more than ever. My respect for the mod motor just went up, when I thought that wasn't possible.
Nope. Koenigsegg CCX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I checked what the stats listed Wikipedia were compared to what Koenigsegg's were to be safe and they are the same. Below is a 3D rendering of the engine in the CCX. Definitely mod motor. The engine in the Agera is a Koenigsegg creation but that its designs are based off of the mod motor was new to me.
Quite an old discussion, and has been mentioned on pretty much every forum that I was involved in in the past. Anyway, the CC8 and CCR has Ford engine blocks. From CCX onwards, however, the engine has been built by Koenigsegg themselves, which is quite impressive from a small manufacturer like them
A lot of people don't know it and I haven't seen a thread about this fact lately. The CCX was when Koenigsegg started having their own engine blocks made. Pretty cool that they do all their own engine work now. I have a ton of respect for Pagani and they use AMG engines. So to find out that Koenigsegg's current engines are based off of the Ford mod motor is awesome in my opinion.
Off course all us ultra Egg nerds know this but perhaps not eveybody here; Koenigsegg also bought a prototype flat 12 engine from Motori Moderni? After a short while they understood that they newer were going to get it as reliable as they needed to put it in a road car. The motor originally was developed for F1 but changes in regulations made it useless. It reved like 9000;-)
That engine was used in the Jiotto Caspita. I only started getting really interested in Koenigsegg over the past year so there is a lot of stuff I don't know about the brand. I'm a Ford fanatic, so a good chunk of my time around cars revolves around Fords, then Muscle Cars, then super / hyper cars.
I actually knew this. When I first read about it when the CC came out I was pretty impressed. I thought squeezing that much power out of it could cause reliability issues but its one hell of an engine
If you look at the Ford GT, those guys can make well north of 1,000 hp with a stock transaxle and stock internals in the engine. I'm not a fan of turbos, but the TTGT's know how to slam it hard.
Both the Ford GT and the Viper started with a truck engine and by the time both companies were done with the engine, it wasn't a truck engine. I'm pretty sure Lamborghini started with small tractor engines. It makes sense to start with a truck engine, as they have to put out a lot of power. A strong truck engine is a good starting point. Everything can be improved on. Koenigsegg started with a Mustang engine, more or less.
If Koenigsegg put their engines in some Mustangs, those Mustangs could cost like $100K. Would be an interesting Mustang, Koenigsegg Edition. I think if someone really wanted to have fun with a Koenigsegg engine, they would put it in a Ford GT.
I'm not discrediting Koenigsegg's work here, but back then Powered By Ford wasn't a stretch. A company like Heffner for example takes a Ford GT and rebuilds the entire engine so it can handle 2,000 hp with the use of twin turbos. The engine is nothing like the stock FGT one, however it still is powered by Ford. It was just tuned by Heffner. The engine block is still made by Ford and the design of the engine is still Ford's, that's what makes a vehicle powered by Ford. So in Koenigsegg's case, their cars were no longer powered by Ford when they made their own engine blocks. The design is still based off of the mod motor, however a custom engine block can mean custom sections of it to suit your needs. So you have tweaked the designs.
LOL, now that's a stretch. A supercharger can be easily changed out for something else. In the Ford GT's case, many are either twin turbo'd, have a Whipple supercharger or both TT and supercharger. In the case of a TT and a supercharger, most go with the stock one because the Whipple is overkill in this situation. They keep the supercharger for the instant boost at low RPMs.
Read the thread again dude. I'm not saying that the Agera R is powered by a Ford engine. I said the early models were and that the engines they use now are based off of the mod motor design. The principle design of the new 5.0 Liter Koenigsegg engine is that of the mod motor. That's not saying that it's powered by Ford, as the only thing that the new 5.0 Liter has in common with, say the 5.0 Liter Coyote, is that of its basic design. You can take an engine and completely re-engineer it to perform better, in which case that engine is now your creation. I just found it interesting that Koenigsegg started with the mod motor and later took it to new heights with his own designs. You don't usually associate Koenigsegg with Ford.
Just to stir the pot... You are comparing the Koenigsegg 5.0 L V8 to the wrong Ford modular V8. Try the 4.6 L SVT Cobra engine and it's offspring the 5.0 L "Cammer" road racing engine. Koenigsegg had Grainger and Warroll (UK not Sweden) change the bore and stroke slightly, otherwise it's virtually identical to the engines G&W makes for Ford. They even used Ford's alternator and water pump. The valve covers and timing chain covers look like they will swap without modifications. I say the Agera is still powered by Ford. Custom built, but still Ford.
The old Ford block used in CC/CCR (20 first cars + a few prototypes) was Teksid cast (Teksid also deliver blocks to Ferrari). Google John Mihovetz, he builds 2500 hp monsters from these blocks.
Is this correct?
1. "Everyone" knows the cars from #030 (2006-) are non Ford, Grainger & Worrall cast, unique Koenigsegg blocks!?
2. First "20 cars or so .." (6 CC + 14 CCR made 2002-2005) are Teksid cast Ford modular design?
3. Your name makes me think you know what you are talking about :^)
I don't think J_C meant to come off like that, pretty sure he just copy and pasted that info from the wiki page on ford mod motors as a way of providing an example.
Ill ask the same question though, can you explain engine architecture to me? Or is there any special things between the Coyote/Cammer and the Agera engine that make them so similar?
Since I don't have CAD files (or whatever Ford/Koenigsegg use) of the engines I'll just do this as simply as I can.
Take a look at a basic mod motor stripped down so we can see the basic shape of the block:
Now, here's the CC8S motor, which is an exact copy of the mod motor but built with Koenigsegg's own castings:
Pretty similar except for the CF. Here's the famed Audi 4.2 V8 just to show all DOHC V8's don't look the same:
Now, the Agera R motor:
Notice the resemblance again? Even the bolt placement is exactly the same as the basic mod motor. Now, of course CvK has made improvements to it, but again it is far from "completely bespoke".
I'm sorry if you perceived me as aggressive, maybe I vas a bit takenaway by the talk about male-kettle-poop..
I can see the similarities, but I think some off it might be because of being able to reuse the carbonfiber moulds for covers in the beginning (fitting the modular engine). It could definitely bee interesting to learn more..
And even IF it shows to be a very similar design, I would not say it's the same thing as buying a complete package from someone else. Koenigsegg has done a lot of work on it and managed to build an impressive engine and has several patents in connection to it..
Though somewhat similar, Koenigsegg has put a lot of R&D into the Agera's engine. It's no SBF. There was an interesting read recently on Koenigsegg's concept of valve-less engines.
Somewhat similar =/= the exact same block/head profile. Most of their R&D hasn't even been put into the engine, the valve-less concept is a long way off.
Aside from all the bickering, srock is correct about the Koenigsegg engine being a mod motor from another mother. The guts of that engine are the same, I highly doubt Koenigsegg spent $$$ on redesigning cylinder heads and the block architecture is the same regardless of what heads you put on it. From what I see, most of Koenigsegg's R&D on that engine would involve the exhaust, intake and fuel systems.
No matter how much you modify the mod motor, the architecture of the engine isn't going to change. It will always be a mod motor. And there is nothing wrong with that either. The mod motor, when built properly like in the FGT, is bullet proof.
To be honest I was hoping for a little more substantial "evidence" than a side by side comparison of visuals when using strong language like "complete bullsh*t". But nevermind, might as well chime in with my two ignorant cents as well then.
I recall an old interview where Christian talks about the decision to start casting their own engines. The way I remember it, and I'm paraphrasing, they got to the point where the old CC8S/CCR engine blocks began splitting in their test bed and more time was spent fixing problems in the basic design than it would take to rework the engine so they did a complete overhaul of the design from the ground up as a matter of pragmatism. The dimensions and functionality of the engine is all Koenigsegg but some similarities were consciously kept intact for 'practical reasons' (which is more often than not the case with engine designs, very rarely they do they start from scratch. I'm guessing in Koenigsegg case it's a combination of them still being able to get support with high development cost/low performance impact parts from their established custom dealerships in the Ford racing infrastructure and to simply to keep development cost down overall). While some parts are similar they are not identical so couldn't be fit in a stock Ford mod engine bar one or two minor things, can't remember which, I have vague memory of Christian mentioning in passing in another interview as an example of how much they'd redesigned it. I'm inclined to believe these claims since they reduced the weight of the engine from the already very light CCR by approx 10% while increasing the power on 98 RON with approx 25%. It also has a different stroke, bore and compression ratio than what you can find in any other Ford mod block so at the very least the cylinders, cylinder heads, pistons, conrods, crankshaft, valves and timing are unique to Koenigsegg. Obviously the pulley placement have changed, there's a different manifold and exhaust and Koenigsegg's own ECU. For context these things alone would be more than enough for big companies to brand it a new engine model. And those things are merely some of the ones we can verify by visuals and readily available information.
So yeah, "based on" and "bespoke" are both fair because there is obviously some reverse engineering in the tailored aka bespoke redesign. "Copied", "stolen", "powered by" or "complete bullsh*t" would however be incorrect. It's similar but reengineered from the ground up so effectively a Koenigsegg engine with it's roots in the Ford mod rather than a tuned engine with a few shiny company logos on the casting which is what seems to be proposed by some in this thread. The work they do is admirable enough since it's the same type of work 40 people at AMG did for Pagani with the Huayra. To expect a company the size of Koenigsegg to throw everything away and start with a clean sheet of paper however when even big companies hesitate to do this (the Ford mod family has hung around since 1991) I believe most would agree is unrealistic. And most people can also use their eyes for a simple side-by-side comparison (or read wikipedia or any of the thousands of publications, forum posts and youtube comments mentioning it) and conclude that the design is based on a Ford mod, so insinuating that Christian is "bullsh*tting" would be unreasonable as well since it's already out in the open and there for all to see. I know at least two of their customers are also Ford GT owners so the dramatic reveal is really not that impressive or shocking and I'm certain it's a conversation Christian has had many times in the past and will continue to have in the future...
And as a side note even the old Ford engine in the CCR had proprietary bespoke sollutions you couldn't find in any other car. The CCR was released in 2004.
Forgive me for asking but is this guesswork or do you know something we don't? I thought you ended this thread on a high note when you wrote:
"Read the thread again dude. I'm not saying that the Agera R is powered by a Ford engine. I said the early models were and that the engines they use now are based off of the mod motor design. The principle design of the new 5.0 Liter Koenigsegg engine is that of the mod motor. That's not saying that it's powered by Ford, as the only thing that the new 5.0 Liter has in common with, say the 5.0 Liter Coyote, is that of its basic design. You can take an engine and completely re-engineer it to perform better, in which case that engine is now your creation. I just found it interesting that Koenigsegg started with the mod motor and later took it to new heights with his own designs. You don't usually associate Koenigsegg with Ford."
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