Thread: Wanted: Photog for Playboy shoot in Vegas/No Pay

I know where you are coming from Jeff.

The way I see it, this is more of an "audition" for a possible big gig.

"Possibility of leading to paid gig at the startup of the TV season."

It's to show these people (who know nothing about you) what you're made of. And, it's an opportunity that many of us would not get, otherwise.

Originally Posted by jeff_creech

I want to preface this comment by saying that I am in no way directing the following at Craig, but I feel the need to state my opinion on the situation, which appears to happen all to often these days. Craig, if my comment is in bad taste or you'd like me to take it else where, I'd gladly oblige.

I've found myself looking back at the past few years recently, wondering where photography went wrong. At what point did it become acceptable to work for free? At what point did creativity become a cheap commodity? I honestly don't understand how it is deemed kosher for individuals to not reimburse others for the services that they perfomed.

I can't say that I don't have anything to do with the shift in value. I on several occasions have been lured into working for free. Seduced by the allure of increased exposure, "future" gigs, and rare perks of the job (naked chicks and fast cars), I lost my values and prostituted my services. But every time I finish one of these jobs, I am always left feeling violated. Disappointed and let down, I wonder why I let myself fall for it again. Why is it, that when a job is deemed "fun," that the gig is in of itself payment? Isn't the whole purpose of pursuing a passion, so that you can get paid for doing what doesn't feel like work. I don't mean for this post to come across as if I am seeking pity, for myself or any other photographer, but it is strange how common free work has become. I understand that the economy is hurting right now and many businesses are suffering, but I don't see that as an acceptable excuse.

I consider photography a trade, similar to an electrician, plumber, or mechanic. It takes several years of rigorous study and countless hours of practice to really excel at your job. Would anyone ever ask their mechanic, "I have a car that needs some engine work, how about you repair it for free this time, and the next time the engine blows up, I'll pay you for it." Why is this not acceptable, but it is deemed perfectly reasonable when that mechanic is substituted with a photographer? It actually makes less sense to me. In this case of Playboy, the photography is absolutely vital to the success of Playboy's business. What is Playboy without the photography? The photographer who worked for scratch is directly responsible for lining Playboy's pocket with green. In the case of product photography, the photographer is the one who communicates the benefits of said products to the customer. How successful would Absolut Vodka be without their award winning photography and ads? What if their ads were nothing but heavy copy?

Or how about this situation, "You fix my leaky pipes, and I'll give you a little byline on a sign in my front yard." Let me call my utility company and see if they'll accept bi-lines as payment. Last time I checked bi-lines and "future" gigs don't pay the bills. Luckily, I'm still young and don't have responsibilities like a family or a mortgage, but I feel sorry for those who have chosen photography as a career, and now can't compete. I would lovvvveee to pursue photography as a career, but I realize now that it's not a viable source of income.

As I said, my rant is not directed toward Craig. I have no reason to doubt Craig here. He probably has more credibility than me and if he says, "there is a possibility for future work," than there probably is, pending one's performance. This sounds like an amazing opportunity and it is not my goal to discourage others from taking advantage of the awesome situation. This is more or less, nostalgic rhetoric on how I wish things could be. Further dialogue would be great, but I don't expect any of my questions to be answered. Ugh, /rant.

we all deal with it all the time dude and it sucks GL though for reals Craig. I hope it comes out sick.

Originally Posted by jeff_creech

I want to preface this comment by saying that I am in no way directing the following at Craig, but I feel the need to state my opinion on the situation, which appears to happen all to often these days. Craig, if my comment is in bad taste or you'd like me to take it else where, I'd gladly oblige.

I've found myself looking back at the past few years recently, wondering where photography went wrong. At what point did it become acceptable to work for free? At what point did creativity become a cheap commodity? I honestly don't understand how it is deemed kosher for individuals to not reimburse others for the services that they perfomed.

I can't say that I don't have anything to do with the shift in value. I on several occasions have been lured into working for free. Seduced by the allure of increased exposure, "future" gigs, and rare perks of the job (naked chicks and fast cars), I lost my values and prostituted my services. But every time I finish one of these jobs, I am always left feeling violated. Disappointed and let down, I wonder why I let myself fall for it again. Why is it, that when a job is deemed "fun," that the gig is in of itself payment? Isn't the whole purpose of pursuing a passion, so that you can get paid for doing what doesn't feel like work. I don't mean for this post to come across as if I am seeking pity, for myself or any other photographer, but it is strange how common free work has become. I understand that the economy is hurting right now and many businesses are suffering, but I don't see that as an acceptable excuse.

I consider photography a trade, similar to an electrician, plumber, or mechanic. It takes several years of rigorous study and countless hours of practice to really excel at your job. Would anyone ever ask their mechanic, "I have a car that needs some engine work, how about you repair it for free this time, and the next time the engine blows up, I'll pay you for it." Why is this not acceptable, but it is deemed perfectly reasonable when that mechanic is substituted with a photographer? It actually makes less sense to me. In this case of Playboy, the photography is absolutely vital to the success of Playboy's business. What is Playboy without the photography? The photographer who worked for scratch is directly responsible for lining Playboy's pocket with green. In the case of product photography, the photographer is the one who communicates the benefits of said products to the customer. How successful would Absolut Vodka be without their award winning photography and ads? What if their ads were nothing but heavy copy?

Or how about this situation, "You fix my leaky pipes, and I'll give you a little byline on a sign in my front yard." Let me call my utility company and see if they'll accept bi-lines as payment. Last time I checked bi-lines and "future" gigs don't pay the bills. Luckily, I'm still young and don't have responsibilities like a family or a mortgage, but I feel sorry for those who have chosen photography as a career, and now can't compete. I would lovvvveee to pursue photography as a career, but I realize now that it's not a viable source of income.

As I said, my rant is not directed toward Craig. I have no reason to doubt Craig here. He probably has more credibility than me and if he says, "there is a possibility for future work," than there probably is, pending one's performance. This sounds like an amazing opportunity and it is not my goal to discourage others from taking advantage of the awesome situation. This is more or less, nostalgic rhetoric on how I wish things could be. Further dialogue would be great, but I don't expect any of my questions to be answered. Ugh, /rant.

When photography went free (digital), photographers went free.

Originally Posted by Rasidel Slika

I know where you are coming from Jeff.

The way I see it, this is more of an "audition" for a possible big gig.

"Possibility of leading to paid gig at the startup of the TV season."

It's to show these people (who know nothing about you) what you're made of. And, it's an opportunity that many of us would not get, otherwise.

That's a good way to look at it. I am extremely optimistic person, which is why it has hurt that much more in the past when I've been dicked over on false promises. It really is a great opportunity
for someone and just goes to show how awesome a community L4P is. I suppose I'll just cross my fingers for whichever lucky L4Per gets the job.

Originally Posted by Snowflake

When photography went free (digital), photographers went free.

Yea, basic supply and demand I suppose. Us Photographers need to start price fixing.

Also you know the entire business has changed. Everyone and their mother has a camera now, it's hypersaturated. You can still get paid, it's just a bit different now as far as how to do it. You have to consider various angles and methods. Same thing happened in the music industry as well, when the dance markets got saturated with djs and producers. Technology advancements made it possible for "regular" people to produce professional material in their bedrooms. Material which it would have taken tens of thousands of dollars to produce back in the 80's and older, even into the 90's. Things have changed greatly.

Originally Posted by Rasidel Slika

Also you know the entire business has changed. Everyone and their mother has a camera now, it's hypersaturated. You can still get paid, it's just a bit different now as far as how to do it. You have to consider various angles and methods. Same thing happened in the music industry as well, when the dance markets got saturated with djs and producers. Technology advancements made it possible for "regular" people to produce professional material in their bedrooms. Material which it would have taken tens of thousands of dollars to produce back in the 80's and older, even into the 90's. Things have changed greatly.

O yea, definitely. Well now, not only is my business threatened by grandmas with 1D's, but I also have to compete against CGI. Both automotive and product photography are giving way. It's cheaper and requires much less resources. Only thing that will be left to shoot are weddings and school portraits.

Jeff I agree 100%, over the past couple of months I have officially gotten sick of the concept of shooting for free, I DO, however think that doing the occasional free shoot to have these fast cars and beautiful women in our portfolios is ok. But to see someone (probably not craig) wanting to have someone shoot playboy for free is insane, it takes allot of creativity and talent to produce the kind of photos that we all do. To think that some one is gonna do this for free, sucks knowing that whoever is setting this up probably has more than enough money to pay a photog a decent rate to have some amazing photos produced.

^^ Yea, I have no problem shooting for free when I am the one that organizes the shoot and offers my services for free. I don't do much model photography at all, but I understand a lot of fashion and model photography is TFP or TFCD. The majority of the time, these shoots are booked by the photographer announcing to a community like Model Mayhem, "I'm booking TFP shoots, contact me if you are interested." It is a completely different situation than the one being proposed here which is, " I need photography taken for my business, who wants to do it for free?"

Here's a little clue / news flash to anyone who wants to bitch about doing photography or other work for free. That industry, like most in the media, is an apprenticeship trade. I've "lost" as much as 2.5k doing a probono gig, and it came back to land me a 10k contract. So you can be near-sighted and say I was cheated 2.5k or you can attribute that money to the cost of getting the client. The line at the bottom is (+)7500 so you do the math.

From the other side of the table, I always try to get interns real-world experience for honing skills and building resume. It's a huge risk to me both in professional liability and personal relationship with the client. So when those interns bitch about seven dollars in cleaning cloths or fourteen dollars in gas, I know that they lack the commitment to the profession and I cross them off the list. Most understand that the internship/apprenticeship is an investment in personal brand and professional network. If you are so blatantly talented that you can just walk into a room and command salary, then you are indeed special. But most of this industry has to work their way through stiff competition to get clients.

Craig is offering a golden ticket here, a chance to get into the room with a potentially huge client and get on their radar. Would be quite foolish to turn it down!

Wow awesome opportunity. Wish I wasn't up here in the great white north lol.