Thread: Cubans vs Non-Cubans: FIGHT!!!

This comes from someone who smokes and collects Cubans for several years.

I don't know what you gentlemen think but my Cuban vs non-Cubans cigars inventory is passing from a past 100%-0% to a current 50%-50% to possibly a future 25%-75%.

I am tired of gambling my time and money on Cuban cigars. I smoke them for many years and I notice they all share something in common: INCONSISTENCY. Throughout the years I encountered up to 20 different profiles in a box of 25. I know it's nature and it can't be perfect but when I smoke a box of Padron No.9 maduro twice a day for 12 days and they all are the same, perfect, I start wondering. Same story with a box RP Decade box, a box Padron No.45 maduro, a box of Ashton VSG, a box of Oliva V, all the same, all great. (Yes, draw variance within a box does exist). I am not saying that Cuban cigars are not good or great but you have to find the right one and to me, that's lottery.

What about aging cigars? Unless the average human life expectancy is 500 years, why wait 2-3-5-10 years to enjoy cigars. I recently watched a video on CA where Jose O. Padron compares aging cigars to waiting to enjoy a newly purchased sports car. He understands and he delivers.

Thoughts? I know Spivy will disagree :-)
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I do try to age. Bought a lot last year, and let them sit for about 6 months.

I wish i could comment on the non cc, against cc. I just dont buy enough cubans. I mean they are great, but other cigars are as good, or better

I agree 100% with your opinion, but will continue to gamble on Cuban cigars. My inventory runs about 50-50.

There's just a certain nutty creaminess, flavor withought having to be overly strong, quality that I much enjoy in a good Cuban.

I agree also that the consistency and quality is not what it used to be, and that they need more time tucked away compared to before.

However, I still like the characteristics enough to keep my ratio at about 90-10.

Originally Posted by Robusto

This comes from someone who smokes and collects Cubans for several years.

I don't know what you gentlemen think but my Cuban vs non-Cubans cigars inventory is passing from a past 100%-0% to a current 50%-50% to possibly a future 25%-75%.

I am tired of gambling my time and money on Cuban cigars. I smoke them for many years and I notice they all share something in common: INCONSISTENCY. Throughout the years I encountered up to 20 different profiles in a box of 25. I know it's nature and it can't be perfect but when I smoke a box of Padron No.9 maduro twice a day for 12 days and they all are the same, perfect, I start wondering. Same story with a box RP Decade box, a box Padron No.45 maduro, a box of Ashton VSG, a box of Oliva V, all the same, all great. (Yes, draw variance within a box does exist). I am not saying that Cuban cigars are not good or great but you have to find the right one and to me, that's lottery.

What about aging cigars? Unless the average human life expectancy is 500 years, why wait 2-3-5-10 years to enjoy cigars. I recently watched a video on CA where Jose O. Padron compares aging cigars to waiting to enjoy a newly purchased sports car. He understands and he delivers.

Thoughts? I know Spicy will disagree :-)

I am only spicy at times. At least that's what my girl says. I want to preface this with the notion that I collect cigars. I have a lot and some people even say that I invest in cigars based on the caliber of cigars I own and buy. Except I have yet to sell anything out of my stash.

I agree with a lot of the points you brought up. But there is a reason I have smoked one non cuban in the last 18 months. Now on to my rebuttal

Consistency: Yes, non-cubans are generally more consistent then the cubans. That is what happens when the govt pays the workers pennies. But something to think about is buying the right years. I have smoked a lot of cigars and I have to say I can only think of one box I own that is crap and I knew it going into it. I do not buy cigars from 1999-2001. This was the boom in the cuban cigar industry and they had sub par rollers making the cigars. These are pretty much crap. If you see them at merchants there is a reason that they are still on the shelves. Stay away. I can go into years more if people want.

Aging: Non-Cuban cigars are not made for aging. They just aren't. I do like fresh cigars, but compared to aged ones they suck. Plain and simple. It is like comparing a table wine to a 1st cru Bordeaux. You just can not. What I do is buy aged cigars to smoke now and age some of my own stock. WHEN I finally get around to building my wine cellar and humidor I will have much more current stock that I will age myself. I invite any member here who is serious about cigars to try an aged cuban and tell me that they can smoke non cubans

Collect-ability/Investment Potential: Again another one for the cubanos. Because of the aging pottential and the brand recognition people collect these cigars. I must say that I have the collecting gene. No doubt in my mind. But when I spend tens of thousands of dollars a month on cigars I want to know that if something happens and I have to sell my collection that I will get my money back. These cigars are traded, discussed, disputed, etc. That is what grows the "sport" of cigars.

Look at all of the non-cuban manufacturers. What they do is knock off the cuban brands and marketing. Not that there is anything wrong with that but think about it. I will say that I do not buy into all of the marketing hype of cubans as well. I do not have 1 BHK cigar in my humidor. I have said it before and there are better cigars for the money :P

E

The overall Cuban taste profile can't be duplicated anywhere. I agree that cubans are inconsistent, but even a mediocre stick is better than 90% of non cubans IMO. I enjoy quite a few non cubans, but they can't touch a Havana when it's on.

I have had very many aged cubans, mostly 2003-2007, but I still run into a lot of inconsistencies with these. I say that my stash is about 20/80% cc/nc now. I have fell for the Cohiba marketing hype and I can tell you that the bhk's really aren't worth it. There are far better cigars out there. Also, I love how the flavours of nc have differed/grown (e.g. Drew Estate). Except for a few cc (H. Upmann M48 LE2009, Bolivar LE 2009, Monte C LE2003), I'm sick of buying them!

I had a person once tell me that in Cuba, the farmers grow tobacco, then the cigar manufacturers come and "buy" the crops. NC manufacturers actually plant their own seeds and have their own method of growing the crop, which leads to more consistent flavour profiles amoung a vitola. Can anyone verify this?

Originally Posted by spivy

I am only spicy at times. At least that's what my girl says. I want to preface this with the notion that I collect cigars. I have a lot and some people even say that I invest in cigars based on the caliber of cigars I own and buy. Except I have yet to sell anything out of my stash.

I agree with a lot of the points you brought up. But there is a reason I have smoked one non cuban in the last 18 months. Now on to my rebuttal

Consistency: Yes, non-cubans are generally more consistent then the cubans. That is what happens when the govt pays the workers pennies. But something to think about is buying the right years. I have smoked a lot of cigars and I have to say I can only think of one box I own that is crap and I knew it going into it. I do not buy cigars from 1999-2001. This was the boom in the cuban cigar industry and they had sub par rollers making the cigars. These are pretty much crap. If you see them at merchants there is a reason that they are still on the shelves. Stay away. I can go into years more if people want.

Aging: Non-Cuban cigars are not made for aging. They just aren't. I do like fresh cigars, but compared to aged ones they suck. Plain and simple. It is like comparing a table wine to a 1st cru Bordeaux. You just can not. What I do is buy aged cigars to smoke now and age some of my own stock. WHEN I finally get around to building my wine cellar and humidor I will have much more current stock that I will age myself. I invite any member here who is serious about cigars to try an aged cuban and tell me that they can smoke non cubans

Collect-ability/Investment Potential: Again another one for the cubanos. Because of the aging pottential and the brand recognition people collect these cigars. I must say that I have the collecting gene. No doubt in my mind. But when I spend tens of thousands of dollars a month on cigars I want to know that if something happens and I have to sell my collection that I will get my money back. These cigars are traded, discussed, disputed, etc. That is what grows the "sport" of cigars.

Look at all of the non-cuban manufacturers. What they do is knock off the cuban brands and marketing. Not that there is anything wrong with that but think about it. I will say that I do not buy into all of the marketing hype of cubans as well. I do not have 1 BHK cigar in my humidor. I have said it before and there are better cigars for the money :P

E

My bad Ed! I was trying to understand why you started by saying that you were "spicy at times"! Typo: Spivy not Spicy! :-)

You also did bring up very interesting points.

Consistency: Someone brought up a good point on the CA forum: non-Cubans are rolled by 1 person, Cubans are rolled by a bunch then are all put together in a big pile, sorted by wrapper color, boxed and shipped. It comes down to personal taste and preference but I still believe the premium non-Cuban cigars are equal, if not better than the premium Cuban cigars. I had a 2006 Partagas Lusitanias with a friend over the weekend and it was a dull cigar with a bad draw. Where is the pleasure in this? Best part is that his 2 previous from the same box were good. When I have 2 hours to unwind and relax with a great cigar, I rather pick a Padron No.45 maduro and know that it's going to be great than take a chance with a 2003-2004 Cohiba Siglo VI that "might" be great. What about the ultra-premium cigars i.e. Cohiba Gran Reserva or ELs? When there is a draw problem with a 150$ cigar or when a regular production tastes better than a EL, there is a serious problem.

Aging: Unless you are the luckiest man on Earth in finding the perfect Cubans, you have to admit that you will still find bad ones in the "perfect years". Aging does wonders, no doubt but you either have to spend a lot of money at auctions or through expert merchants to find them or buy recent production and have the discipline and patience to enjoy them. In hoping the ratio of good vs bad is favorable.

Collect-ability/Investment Potential: Collecting cigars is fun and part of an expensive hobby. It's fun as you get to meet people, trade, exchange and learn. There is no doubt about that. Personally, after losing a 300+ boxes collection of rares and collectibles to a flood, I came to realize that I would only "collect" to smoke. Life is short. Investments, yes again, you know it about my recent sale of the Cohiba 40th. Brand recognition is another point to seriously consider and another reason why you don't have one single stick of the new BHK. Habanos S.A. has figured out that by simply creating a hype around their cigars by making them "EL", "1 of XXX", etc they would sell big. Russians and Asians are Habanos S.A.' best new clientele: they have big money, they want exclusive and they spend. If Habanos S.A. would print a band "Moon Regional", I can guarantee you it would sell. Same goes for the upcoming Monte GR and Cohiba 1966: all pre-orders are sold.

Another aspect of Habanos I dislike is the etiquette built around it; what is referred to cigar snob. In Geneva, Gerard would not treat you well when you enter his shop dressed in shirt and jeans. Same goes with Jimmy Ng, they would not let you in his lounge unless you are part of a royal family or super wealthy. In the end, they're just cigars.
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Originally Posted by ZachF88

I had a person once tell me that in Cuba, the farmers grow tobacco, then the cigar manufacturers come and "buy" the crops. NC manufacturers actually plant their own seeds and have their own method of growing the crop, which leads to more consistent flavour profiles amoung a vitola. Can anyone verify this?

There is only one manufacturer in Cuba and that is the state owned Habanos

Originally Posted by spivy

I do not have 1 BHK cigar in my humidor. I have said it before and there are better cigars for the money :P
E

Behikes:
Over hyped - Obviuosly.

Over priced - Don't think so, at least not as much as a lot of my luxury purchases, i.e. watches, clothes etc.

Better cigars for the money - I'm sure.

Hard to get - Yes, makes the hunt even more fun though.

I just love them though. They are beautiful to look at, have flawless construction, smell great, taste wonderful even unlit. Most of all, they exude creaminess, which is the main characterisitc I look for in a Cuban cigar.

Add it all up, and the total experience is so worth it to me, I find the Behikes to be a good value.